Ari Aster and John Waters on Standing Firm - PIFF 2025

      “He appears ordinary — but he’s not!” John Waters exclaimed on Saturday night as he welcomed Ari Aster to the stage. “Come on up!”

      Thus commenced an enchanting dialogue at the Provincetown International Film Festival between two of cinema's most daring directors: Waters, the icon who challenges conventions and serves as the festival's patron saint, and Aster, attending Provincetown for the first time to receive the Filmmakers on the Edge award, just a month prior to the debut of his new film, Eddington.

      The pair, who originally met years ago at a gathering at David Sedaris’ residence, exchanged heartfelt compliments while delivering self-deprecating humor about themselves. For instance, Aster noted that none of his following movies have matched the success of his breakout film Hereditary from 2018, which grossed $80 million on a $10 million budget.

      “It’s just been a decline ever since,” Aster chuckled, adding that after Hereditary’s tremendous success, “I took it for granted. I thought, ‘Well, that’s how it’s going to be.’”

      Waters responded by highlighting the significant critical acclaim for Hereditary, then recounted a scathing review of his own 1977 film Desperate Living by Janet Maslin: “You could search far and wide and still not find a more pointless and ugly movie … but why would you bother?”

      Their conversation continued with amusing grievances about the current state of cinema, though their passion for filmmaking was evident.

      “The movie industry, as I know it, is finished,” Waters remarked at one point, inquiring if Aster shared the sentiment.

      “Well, it’s certainly not feeling great,” Aster replied. “And I’m very fortunate. I’m making the films I want to create. But overall, the culture feels just… horrible. I don’t know. Everything seems bleak.”

      In a quintessential artistic manner, he’s channeling that frustration through his storytelling. In Eddington, a horror film set during the Covid pandemic of 2020, Joaquin Phoenix’s small-town New Mexico sheriff confronts Pedro Pascal’s mayor amidst rampant paranoia and conspiracy theories. The film explores themes of American distrust and division.

      Waters commented on Eddington: “There are no heroes. There’s no one to root for. That’s what I appreciate about it. Both sides are awful. Is it possible to feel nostalgic for Covid?”

      The audience erupted in laughter, though Aster added, “I’m not sure how nostalgic it really is.”

      **John Waters and Ari Aster Discuss Gatekeepers**

      Ari Aster receives the Filmmaker on the Edge award from John Waters at the Provincetown International Film Festival.

      Aster is arguably one of the most acclaimed genre filmmakers of recent years, and Waters serves as a patron saint not only of the Provincetown festival but of audacious filmmakers worldwide. Best recognized for the 1988 hit Hairspray, he made a name for himself in the 1970s with provocative films like Pink Flamingos (1972) and Female Trouble (1974). He is celebrated both for his movies and his candid opinions.

      In 2023, after Aster’s 179-minute surreal tragicomedy Beau is Afraid struggled at the box office and received mixed reviews, Waters joyfully declared it the best film of the year.

      While both Waters and Aster joked about their occasional negative reviews, Waters shared a sense of nostalgia for the days when critics held more sway.

      “In the past, if you had an art film and received a glowing review in The New York Times, it was likely to succeed, but a bad review definitely meant failure,” Waters noted. “Now, a great review doesn’t seem to matter, but a negative one can still lead to failure. I miss the influence of critics in some way.”

      Waters and Aster delighted in discussing the various pressures that encourage them to compromise their visions, including focus groups (which Waters refers to as “fuck-us groups” for how their feedback can dilute a filmmaker’s intent).

      Waters pointed out that A24, which distributes Aster’s films, is akin to a modern-day version of Miramax under Harvey Weinstein, but without the problematic baggage. He recounted that Weinstein once offered to distribute his 1998 film Pecker — on the condition that he change a vital setting.

      “If it’s not a gay bar and is instead a strip club, I’ll do it,” Waters quoted Weinstein as saying. (Waters declined.)

      Aster, on the other hand, mentioned how studio executives always push him to cut down the lengths of his films.

      “That’s always a significant battle during editing,” he explained.

      “But how do you prevail?” Waters asked.

      “It’s just a long negotiation,” Aster replied. “I’ve never been forced to change the films in any compromising way. It’s always just about making them shorter. If anyone were in the room